In the 253rd episode of 40 and 20, The Watch Clicker Podcast, we discuss the A-11. The famous military watch known as “The Watch that Won the War”. And while we are no experts on the topic, we discuss the nuance and history of the watch and some of the A11’s that exist today.
LEVELLING THE FIELD: AESTHETIC REMIXES OF THE FIELD WATCH OR 1,001 WAYS TO GET IT RIGHT
Other Things:
Andrew: Justified: City Primeval
Everett: Zebra Sarasa R Blue Black
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Foster Watch Co: https://fosterwatches.com
Frank Affronti Photography: https://www.affrontography.com
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Intro/Outro Music: Bummin on Tremelo, by Kevin MacLeod (incompetch.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License
Creativecommons.org/licenses/by.3.0/
Hello, fellow watch lovers, nerds, enthusiasts, or however you identify.
You're listening to 40 and 20 The Watch Clear podcast with your hosts, Andrew, and
my good friend Everett.
Here we talk about watches, food, drinks, life, and other things we like, Everett, how are
you?
And secondly, how was my intro?
Sometimes you comment on my speed.
Was that acceptable to you?
I'm fine.
Okay.
Yeah, I'm fine.
With my speed or you're just fine in general, because I did ask you two questions.
It was a compound question.
It's trying to trick you here.
That's an objection.
No, I'm doing great.
There is about a month's worth of baseball left, so shit's getting real.
Last time I checked the American League West had almost exactly a three-way tie at the
top, which is crazy.
Okay, so hear me out.
You're always playing, oftentimes the schedules are constructed to have multiple games against
division opponents at the end of the season.
You've got to create some separation in each division.
That's right.
You've got like four or five teams in the American League right now that are all super
close to each other.
And in the American League West, you have three teams that are literally neck and neck.
And so with a month to go, 30-ish games to go in the season, you've got these teams that
are going to have to either break apart or not.
Well, in the Mariners' last 10 games, they play seven against the Texas Rangers and three
against the Houston Astros, who just so happened to be...
They might have just won a World Series.
The other two teams that they're competing with at the AOS.
Fortunately, all those teams are in pretty good place standing in a pretty good position
in the wildcard race, but you've also got Toronto that's in there.
Toronto.
Boston has not disappeared.
We've just got this really crazy race that I don't think the American League West is going
to be decided until perhaps the last game of the season.
It's crazy.
It's going to be crazy.
This is going to be one of the most fun end of seasons.
I can remember.
Someone's going to get left out.
I'm guessing Toronto.
I'm hoping Toronto.
But I don't care.
If Texas doesn't make the playoffs, I don't give a shit.
I don't care about the Rangers.
Sorry.
The Rangers make the playoffs.
Sorry if you're a Rangers fan.
I don't care.
If Houston didn't make the playoffs, I'd be delighted.
I'd be delighted.
I'm sorry if you're a Houston fan.
Nobody else likes you, especially in the American League.
Go back to the National League.
We don't need you.
True.
We don't need you.
Do you think people are going to say that to the Ducks when we win the Big Ten this year?
Next year.
Oh boy.
Maybe.
Go back to the Pac 4.
We don't need you.
Yeah, you know, it's interesting.
The Ducks going to the Big Ten.
There are a lot of really good teams in the Big Ten.
And I think the Ducks competition has just stiffened.
I think it's an interesting change.
You know, you've got Michigan, you had Ohio State.
I mean, Michigan's probably this year.
Michigan's one of the best teams in the country.
Ohio State's always good.
You know, Washington, USC.
I think when you look at how competitive the Pac 12 was against how competitive the Big
Ten was, I don't know that we're gaining much besides publicized games.
Right?
When you look at Stanford has there like three good seasons a decade.
And when they do, they fucking do Washington and Washington State are competitive teams.
Cal, USC are always competitive teams.
I mean, three quarters of the Pac 12 were really competitive teams, which is why they've
all left.
Cal has been competitive.
I mean, one good season in the last two decades.
UCLA was on and off.
There were really competitive teams and all eight of them have left.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's interesting.
In any event, baseball, I'm very excited.
This is the doing math time of the season.
Like, well, if this happens, then this, it's fun.
It's exciting.
It's fun to look at those last 10 games and think, well, A, that's 20 games away.
So what's going to happen between now and then?
And B, is there any way to feel comfortable going into those 10 games?
And I think the answer is no.
No, not when you play that many games and you stay that competitive throughout the season.
Go Mariners in any event.
Go Mariners.
I have a weird baseball relationship in that I grew up in Portland and was by default a
Mariners fan.
And that was like the team that I watched and cared about.
And then like started to kind of give a shit about baseball while living in Taos and followed
the Rangers and now I have a complicated environment.
Yeah, fuck the Rangers.
Not nearly as complicated as their friend Tommy, whose wife is a Michigan fan.
They now exist in the same conference.
Yeah.
But yeah, Andrew, how are you?
I am good.
I had a really pretty productive weekend.
We went camping last week.
All right, we already talked about that.
We did.
So I guess I didn't do much this weekend.
I just kind of like recouped and got shit done around the house.
Worked today.
So I'm just kind of kind of chilling.
Yeah.
I'm good.
Like a villain.
Exactly.
That's what I'm known for.
My villainous chilling.
Excuse me, my rap name.
Villainous chiller.
Children.
Ah, it needs workshop.
Yeah, I think it does.
In any event, we're not talking about villain names or rapster names.
Rather we are talking about watches, which is what we do, which is what we've done something
like 252 times today being 253.
So Reddit is a website that you may have heard of.
It's got these things called sub-readits, which are like in and of themselves forums.
So Reddit is like a forum with sub-forum.
There is a subreddit for everything.
There's a subreddit for, I'm sure crocheting.
I'm sure there's a bunch.
But there's sub-readits for like individual YouTube channels and video games.
Anyway, there's a subreddit for the city of Eugene.
It's called RUG.
RUG.
That's right.
And today someone posted on the Eugene subreddit something to the effect of are there any famous,
are there any famous podcasters or YouTubers from Eugene?
And the answer is no.
Dan Carlin is from Eugene.
The Peter, I can't remember Peter's last name, but the founder of On The Rocks, who's got
a very popular YouTube is on Eugene.
There's a few others.
We have a few others that are here.
Campaigns is from Eugene.
He's from Springfield.
There are a number of mid-level influencer types that are from Eugene.
Campaigns is actually pretty notable.
He was one of Under Armour's only two sport athletes.
There were like three.
Yeah, he's notable.
Well, Dan Carlin is notable too, right?
So we've got a handful.
In any event, someone, someone who I don't know put on there the 40 and 20 podcast, Andrew
and Everett, as if it was everything you need to know.
And I saw it because I frequent the RUG.
And I commented, I think I said yo-yo.
But yeah, I was like, that's cool, man.
Like someone that's from Eugene is like, this is a big deal, and I listened to it.
And then with...
Was it you?
It wasn't me.
It's someone I do not know.
It's someone...
I went through their post history to see if I could figure out who it was, and I was not
able to.
So, yeah.
Hit us up.
Where you are.
That's right.
Not underscore WatchClicker.
Don't hit the 40 and 20 page.
That's right.
We'll tell that story someday.
40 and 20 underscore WatchClicker.
Not someone I was familiar with.
In any event, thank you to whoever you are for thinking we're famous.
And within about 20 minutes of that, a local business reached out to us and asked what
our rates for sponsorship on the show are.
$10,000.
And I gave them our standard rates, our standard rates.
We've got different rates if you're a watch person or a non-watch person.
I gave them our rates and I don't know what will come of that.
But I was like, wow, what a neat little turn of events.
We're famous.
We are famous.
We're famous.
We're getting unsolicited sponsorship requests.
Yeah.
That's right.
We turn down reviews.
We turn down interviews.
Guys, we're there.
We're at the pinnacle.
Still don't charge you though.
So you're welcome.
What are we talking about today, Andrew?
I had this idea and I was thinking about a lot of overlap, right?
Because you look at all these new releases and a lot of the new releases and you're like,
oh, it's really cool.
I really like this new release from this brand.
But if you kind of 30,000 foot view it and I got this idea because I was showing my wife
a watch and I was like, hey, I'm going to buy this.
It costs us many money.
She's like, that looks like every other watch you own.
I was like, you're objectively wrong here.
They are all different.
This is different for this reason.
Like, no, no, it's the same watch.
And so I was kind of like thinking on that idea and I had that just had that recent experience
and I was thinking about these new releases and I was thinking about military watches
for whatever reason.
And I kind of wondered, I was like, how much is too much of a good thing?
Because we're always in the mindset of more is better and more is more and more is more
better, right?
We like the, we like a lot of watches and we like brands to be producing stuff and we
like people that be doing stuff.
But with respect to military watches and field watches, like how many brands do we really
need to make the same field watch?
I get there's some new ones.
There's some differences, but I'm thinking like the really classic A11.
How many brands do we really need making that military watch?
And that was kind of what got us started down this rabbit hole and I pitched this idea
to Everett and he's like, I like that.
Like, how much is too much?
So we both dove into the A11.
I had a little bit of a surprise.
I don't get there.
Was it surprising for me?
Was it surprising for you?
Hmm.
I don't know.
We'll have to.
Okay.
Yeah, we'll get there.
So let's talk first about what the A11 is and the A11 is.
Oh, it's your iPad.
It is my iPad.
You bring your pen pineapple pineapple pen?
I did not bring my pen.
Fucking kidding me.
Well, I'm sorry.
What do I need it for?
Notes.
Well, but I've already written on the notes.
You're an asshole.
The A11 was a is a world war to American military spec sheet watch where the American
government put out specific specifications for a watch out to contract and said, hey,
we want this.
So and I can, I can, I can fill in a little bit.
Okay.
1943 spec was 94 dash 27 834 dash B, which replaced the prior spec, the dash A spec.
And that is where we get the specs for the A11 watch.
So that specific stuff, February of 1943, the A11 watch is born and it's not a model
of watch, but rather it's a list of specifications by which to make a watch, a set of criteria.
So the American military puts out the spec sheet and says, hey, you want to make some
cheddar, make us a watch within these specifications.
Here are the kind of general specifications had to be 15 or more jewels.
So a lot of companies were not making a 15 plus jewel movement.
So they made a couple of changes added as 15th or 16th jewel.
They got it taken care of had to be hacking and hand winding, had to have a power reserve
between 30 and 52 hours.
Mm.
That sounds right.
Ish.
Yes.
Now, the dial.
Center seconds.
Yeah.
Plus and center seconds.
The dial had to be center seconds had to have a one to 12 hour markers and a minute track
with 10 minute demarcations.
Case size had to be 32 to 36, 39 lugged.
No, case size.
Had to be 32.
30 to 33.
30 to 33.
Okay.
Yeah, it's actually like 29.
It was an inches, right?
So it was actually 29 and change like 29.7 to 33.2, something like that.
39 lugged a lug, 16 millimeter lugs and had to have the indestructible acrylic crystal.
Yeah.
Clear and nonbreakable is the term from the spec.
Also had it did there was no indication on bezel style.
So it could be cleaner coin edge.
I lost something that I didn't think I was going to lose.
So I didn't even put it on my note sheet.
Oh, and yeah, a green or OD strap.
No, there's a couple of other notes I'll add because I based on your inflection, I gather
you're done.
Steel obviously was at a was at a premium during World War II.
So there was a handful of alloys that it could be made out of, but had to be crumbplated.
Although I do understand a few of these were made with silver.
Yeah, right.
What a baller watch to get issued.
It had to have a steel case back with specific engravings.
The effective NSN, the national stock number indicating that it was specked out.
That's right.
And for water resistance, they didn't specify a water resistance depth rating because that
wasn't really a thing yet.
Rather, they had a specific test that had to be performed, which was to suspend the watch
in mercury equivalent to 72 inches of water, or I believe that's seven feet of water equivalent
to the pressure of seven feet of water.
That's five feet.
76 feet.
Okay.
So there you go, because I'm 69 inches tall.
There you go.
I'm not six feet tall.
And it had to stay there for 15 minutes or for 15 seconds, I believe.
For 15 seconds, which is, oh, yeah, I have six feet right here, which is a very like bizarre,
you know, test.
Now we would just say it needs to be water resistant to or dust meters or like something.
So yeah, I think that obviously there's a lot more to the specs.
The only other thing I would add is that there were drawings of a case, drawings of
hands and drawings of a dial.
And there was some room for interpretation, as we will see with the watches that get released.
But really it was that that was it.
You know, the case profile needs to look like this.
No brand badging on the dial either.
That's right.
Loom was an option.
The Navy wanted to see what was it called?
The Navy Bureau of Aeronautics wanted a full loomed dial.
But Loom was also optional.
Yeah.
Well, and the Navy Aeronautics do not have to follow the Army standards.
So they released revisions to the A11 spec, which included luminous dots at five minutes
and at the hour and minutes.
So a lot of times you'll see watches that look a lot like an A11 watch, but slightly
different with these five minute loom pips.
And those are actually probably Navy watches.
Or modern interpretations of a 11 watch.
That's right.
So we've got the kind of general specs down.
Four companies were producing A11s at this point.
Elgin, Bulova, Waldam, Hamilton.
And I don't think Hamilton makes any of these until significantly later, but they were making
them.
They didn't make some.
They aren't in the top three, but they did exist.
It happened.
They were late to the party.
But we've got four companies making this original.
Everyone make the same thing.
Watch.
Very boktaki, very kind of seagull-y.
They all look the same.
They're using typically one of two movements, either an Elgin or a Bulova movement.
And this is it.
This is the watch.
This is the watch that won the war.
And that seems a bit like an overstatement to me.
But I will accept it if we consider that millions of these were issued to American military
service members over the course of World War II.
So there were also the underpants that won the war, which we'll probably talk about in
a future episode, as well as the socks.
Yeah.
So in looking at what the A11 specs are.
Andrew, I don't think Hamilton made an A11.
Hamilton made a fucking A11.
I'm just going to throw it out there.
I don't think Hamilton made an A11.
But carry on.
No, now I'm googling.
That's why I can put it in your face.
While you're googling.
I will say that there are a number of watches that exist today, which are based very closely
on an A11 watch.
And most of them refer to the A11 in their title.
This is not an exhaustive list.
Rather, these are the ones that I could find.
Yeah.
So this is what surprised me.
When I think of an A11, I'm like, there's 30 brands making an A11 or a military, a World
War II military watch.
But when we go against the spec sheet, some revelations were made.
Yeah.
I was able to find, I was able to find six that I was confident in.
Those are the Bolova A11 hack.
That's a $350 watch that comes in at 38 millimeters.
I'm like, in A11 by...
Interestingly, it's got a blue dial and it's an automatic.
So not a two spec A11, but evocative nonetheless.
The MK2, I think it's called the Crucible, but Crucible.
Yeah, I could be wrong.
That's a little bit more expensive.
650, 39 black dial, beautiful watch and automatic.
For Tucci makes an A11.
They call it the A11T.
Does it's titanium?
275 bucks, 42 millimeters with an AmeriCorps movement.
MWC, a much vilified company makes an A11 for 335 bucks, 38 millimeters auto.
I believe it's got a Mio to eight, but don't quote me.
Baltony, a new player to the A11 scene, 175 bucks, 39 millimeters, and A38.
This is an interesting proposition because it's inexpensive and it looks pretty good.
They've gotten in a gold and also a black and perhaps most notably, Presidius.
Presidius makes a $600 hand-wined mechanical A11 that comes in both 38 and 32, which is
true to the original size.
I think Presidius is the only company right now producing a true A11 watch.
And they appear to be terrific.
There's a few different versions you can buy.
I think probably their most popular version is one that's based on a fellow named Tom Rice.
But-
Presidius, maybe?
What is that?
Presidius, not Presidius.
There's only one eye.
Oh, Presidius?
Okay.
Well, I'm sorry, guys.
I'm sorry, Presidius.
So I'm sure there's a few more.
That's a list of six companies that are making these.
You said, I sent you this list.
And you said, well, and maybe this is a good place for us to segue.
This is kind of our divergence from what my original plan was.
You sent me, or I sent you this list and said, these are the ones I can find.
And you said, well, add the Vero S3 to that.
And I think you've got a Veyer S3 to that.
And I think you've got it covered.
And I was like, the Veyer S3 is not an A11 watch, Andrew.
And you were like, wow.
It's not not, but it's not.
It doesn't fit the spec sheet.
And I said, well, it's just not the hands wrong.
It's got stringed hands, which are appropriate for a GGW113, the Vietnam era evolution, but
not for an A11.
The minute track is all wrong.
It's different.
The minute markers on the minute track are wrong.
They're at five minute demarcations.
Well, they're at the fives and not the zeros.
It's not an A11 watch.
It's really just a field watch.
And so I think that it's important to note that.
And I think you ultimately relented.
Oh, I didn't disagree.
But I also feel like it fits the idea of the A11.
And then you look at, I looked at the spec sheet and I looked at the watch and I looked
at the actual A11s.
And I was like, no, you're definitely right.
This is not an A11.
This is an iteration, a growth, an evolution of the A11.
Oh, I see.
It wasn't all the way down.
So I think that perhaps brings us to maybe the first point we're going to make today,
which is that with all of these watches, whether that's an A11 or a GGW 113 or whatever, there's
a number of different iterations, the Milt W3818B, which is like the ground version of
the GGW 113.
All of these watches were spec watches, right?
They were made to a spec.
So anything that's released today that's not to that spec is an interpretation and interpretation.
And for the A11, for instance, as far as I can tell, and I don't think the prosthetist
actually qualifies because the movement's wrong.
So yeah, what's important is the dial the most important thing is the case size and most
important thing is the movement important.
What's important?
And if you're going to call your watch an A11, but be titanium 42 millimeters and have
a quartz movement, are you?
And what's better is the Bertucci A11T doesn't even have dial.
It's got several different dial configurations, most of which aren't right.
So does the Cruxible?
And so what are we talking about here?
If you're saying this is A11 and you're not and none of the things are right, are we okay
with that?
Of course we are.
Well, I don't know.
Are we okay with it?
Okay, and A11 because the the Bulova A11 hack, if it comes with a true A11 dial, comes
in blue.
Right.
Is that acceptable?
And I don't I don't necessarily think it's not acceptable.
Of course it's acceptable.
No, of course, the spec sheet didn't say blue.
The assumption was black.
But what's the point, right?
If if I'm willing to say, well, the various three is not an A11 watch.
Of course they haven't marketed it as an A11 watch.
But if I'm willing to say that's not an A11, but a 39 millimeter blue dialed watch from
Hamilton, an automatic watch from Hamilton is, what are we actually talking about here?
We're just talking in circles here.
Yeah.
What my point is, what's the distinction?
I don't know.
And I think the answer is that there are no A11s on the market, which shocked me except
for maybe the Precedus, which is close.
Precedus.
Yeah.
I'm going to go with Precedus.
I think that's right.
I think Precedus is right.
Precedius.
No, that's got you know, second e sound, Precedus.
There are barely literate people here.
But what it comes down to is I was kind of shocked by how few true A11s were out there.
And I mean, I dug pretty deep.
I went to like brands that I was like, no, I know you make an A11 because you've got this
track, but you don't have the modifications.
You got the wrong handset.
Okay, well, no, this company has to do it.
Well, that's a field watch that has a 12 and a 24 hour ring.
And it kind of got me it.
So that's that sort of like set me further down my path of like how much is too much
of a good thing.
Not just with the A11.
The A11 was the first example.
One of the first examples of a spec watch where everyone is expected to make the same
thing, but you can't put your logo on it.
Sorry.
And we see iterations later of not the A11, but of save the dirty dozen where we have another
spec watch.
We're two watch where everyone's making the same thing.
And it created this thing where it was okay that everyone was making the same thing.
And all these companies are getting their money making the same thing.
And now here we are in a world where everyone has a field watch.
Yeah.
And more or less, they are all specked the same.
Not just kind of the same, but like the same.
12 24 hour track, decent loom, round case, decent crown, maybe a four o'clock crown if
you're feeling salty, spicy even.
And I'm wondering how much is too much.
We have this iterative post A11 three up to four companies are making it currently six
companies are making it more people are making a iterative design on the A11 than we're originally
doing it.
That's crazy.
So a few years ago, Henry Margino, one of the watch clicker staff writers wrote and published
an article on watch clicker.
This article is called leveling the field, aesthetic remixes of the field watch or 1001
ways to get it right.
And in that article, Henry talks about watches such as the Hamilton cacky field.
He talks about the time X campers and expeditions.
He talks about the the prestigious A11.
And you know, he talks about this phenomenon, right?
Where we've got these 20 different watches that he's got on the table in front of him.
And they're all basically the same, but they're all slightly different and they're all doing
slightly different things.
He doesn't take the same position that you do, at least ostensibly Andrew, which is there's
too much.
And I'm probably with Henry.
I don't think that there is too much.
I'm wondering, I'm questioning.
I do think at some point, you have to ask, what am I adding as I release this watch?
What am I contributing?
What am I adding?
With Precedus, I think it's real clear what they're adding, right?
They're making this really honest, really unrepentant homage to this watch that's not
terrifically common.
You know, I think probably more common than the A11 is the GGW113, which is really probably
the archetypal field watch, right?
Yeah, it's the foundation by which every other field watch has ever stood upon.
That is where it's not where the 24 hour track is introduced, but that's where the 24
hour track cements its place in field watch lore, that is where the markers and the fonts
that we know and love today are all really, they all, all those things really cement themselves
as part of the conversation.
And today you can go buy for 450 bucks, a brand new Hamilton khaki mechanical, which
is, but for the size, an A11 watch, right?
It looks like an A11.
It wears like an A11.
Or not an A11, excuse me, a GGW113.
And so, and it's not just Hamilton, right?
A few years ago when Timex released their expedition north, a lot of people say, oh,
so knock off Hamilton, which is such a such a silly thing to say.
Because not, it's a reimagination of a spec watch.
That's right.
That's right.
But there's something, there's something to be said about that ideology.
With the A11, I think it's a little different with the A11 because you've got so few companies,
you know, six seems like a lot.
But of those six, there's only like two.
There's 75,000 companies making a dive watch.
That's right.
So all that to say, if you're going to set out to make a new field watch, obviously you've
got companies like Boulder that are doing things way different.
But still super familiar.
You've got companies like, oh, what's the one?
The one that scored so high on our bear?
Not there.
Oh, no, no, no.
Oh, why am I just?
Fair.
No, not fair.
The one who the guy released a few years ago, the man in his watch, Matt Hranick, I'm
just blanking, and Andrew, you were zero help.
You're not doing a good job, Stan.
Describing anything.
You're just like, you mean naming the owner?
Anyway, you've got these companies that are doing these things in slightly different
ways, but very familiar with.
And then you've got companies that are doing them in really faithful ways, right?
Almost indistinguishable, such as Hamilton from the beginnings.
So when a brand owner is going to make one of these things, how do they position this
in the market, the saturated market, and how do you convince yourself that you're contributing
something to the community?
I think that's got to be the question.
Easier to answer for a company like Boulder with their crazy case and their crazy dial
colors.
And working entirely in titanium.
That's right.
That's right.
Sorry, I wasn't really listening, so I'm not prepared to offer another thing because I
was trying to look up the watch brand that you were poorly describing.
Sarah, there it is.
Christ Almighty Andrew.
I don't feel bad.
Okay.
Because I also couldn't think of the brand name even when you said his name was like,
I fucking know that.
But, man, you look at, I mean, a brand like Sarah is a perfect example.
Or a brand like Veyer is another really good example who are doing these really kind of
classic, simple, spec-styled watches, right?
Very Spartan design, well-specced.
And that's it.
That's their thing.
Is there doing what would otherwise be considered spec watches in a really cool way and super
different ways?
You know, Veyer is doing a very modern interpretation and while Sarah is doing like a very like vintage
inspired interpretation of these things.
And they do some interesting stuff with their like dial fonts and that.
But I'm this idea of everyone's doing the same thing.
Kind of became not problematic, but like when is it too much that everyone has the same
field watch?
I'm going to read a snippet from Henry's article because I think that this excerpt,
I think that this kind of captures what we're talking about, but maybe in a roundabout way.
It says, one thing that is worth mentioning in terms of the history of field watches is
that soldiers were issued one and expected to take care of it.
As with the aforementioned objects, field watches were built to function and with reasonable
wear and tear to serve the wearer for an extended period.
Aside from serving a particular function, objects such as the field watch, and then he
says, or the KitchenAid mixer or Ray Van Wafair's, which are intended to last must be designed
in a way that makes them timeless.
What's ironic is that a foolproof way to transcend time and space aesthetically is to have a
clear purpose and functionality that is almost impossible to be improved on.
In other words, the necessity of the function oftentimes drives the timelessness of the
look.
So he does a couple of interesting things there.
When he compares the field watch to Wafair's and a KitchenAid mixer, I think the Wafair's,
I'd used that comparison in talking about something like the SKX.
But a KitchenAid mixer, I started to think about that and I was like, that is such a
terrific comparison.
So the KitchenAid mixer, famously, or perhaps not, I don't know, designed by Hobart.
And there's a legend about that, which is that when Hobart was designing their home
mixer, someone said, this is the most fantastic KitchenAid that has ever been created and
thus was born in the KitchenAid stand mixer.
I don't know if that's true or not.
And it doesn't matter because it's a terrific story nonetheless.
The legend is better than the story.
But when you look at the design of the KitchenAid stand mixer, it has not changed meaningfully
in a half a century.
KitchenAid remains on every wedding registry that has ever been made.
That's right.
Stand mixers are also interesting in another way that's similar to watches or at least
the type of watches we talk about on the show, which is that the best ones remain almost
entirely analog.
The controls are analog.
You typically don't have electronics incorporated, although there are some new Breville I think
has some new fangled stuff.
But pass, you want to have dials and analog tactile feedback buttons and levers in that
thing for a couple reasons.
One, because when an analog lever breaks, you can open it up and see where it's broken
and repair it.
And two, because that's just what the device demands.
The device demands turning and tension and levers and machines that are tactile, as you
said, and accessible.
Watches are similar.
And I think the field watches the truest expression of that.
And I think Henry hits the nail on the head by designing a specification that is so purpose-built.
Yeah.
You create something that will transcend amendments and adjustments.
Now arguably, and as we've already alluded to today on this show, I think the GGW113
is perhaps a slight improvement to the A11.
And I think the thing we can most easily point to is, well, two things.
One of those is the 24-hour track.
It's an objectively better dial.
And the second thing is the luminescence.
So A11, no mention of luminescence in the specs for the A11.
By the time the GGW113 comes around, we've got much more accessible luminescent material,
radio octave or not.
It doesn't matter.
And you weren't expected to survive, so get poisoned.
So there's a technological advancement that happens in that period of time that made that
possible.
And so which is not to say the A11 design was perfect.
It obviously wasn't.
But at the time, I think it was hard to do much better than what we were doing.
I mean, there's all sorts of subjective, you know, Bulova and Elgin and Walton.
Elgin and Walton do their dials differently.
You can tell a Bulova A11 because it's going to have that train track, minute track.
But besides that, these watches all look the same, most of them had a fluted bezel.
They all look very similar by design.
That was the intent.
And so there's something about that.
People took time and they said, what do we need?
What do we want?
What's the execution?
So yeah, move this around or connect these lines or whatever.
But this is the iconic and absolute standard for this device.
And in and of itself, that process, in and of itself, by putting things where they should
be, me is on place, you create something that's timeless when it's well done.
Can you imagine the dudes on the committee?
Like, Volon told to sit on this committee to build this spec sheet and manual.
It's an evolution of a previously existing army manual for timekeeping instruments.
Yes, it's interesting because at the time this was created, 1942, probably is when this
was created.
Everybody was in the army.
Everybody had joined the war effort in the United States and everywhere, really in the
world.
And so this probably was a combination of young engineers and designers and maybe also
some haggard old watchmakers, some real industrial designers, who knows.
And it'd be really fascinating to understand who was on that committee that put these specs
together.
But yeah, this is a committee of people who knew what the fuck they were doing.
How many of these people do you think all came from working at Elgin or Bulova or Waldam
and were already entrenched in the industry balancing like, hey, I know this is what's
possible with what we can produce.
We do know that the watchmakers, that the watch brands, the American watch brands participated
in this project, which is why we know Hamilton specifically did not participate in the A11
project.
So we do know that the brands were involved.
So yeah, you're certainly right, Andrew.
There were watchmakers and watch designers and watch engineers that were part of that
process.
Cool, watch history thing to have existed in this collision of the war effort against
watch design that really gave birth to it's okay for us all to be making the same thing
or competing kind of in this space to be making the same thing and somehow better than the
others.
This instance in the A11, they got their purchase order and they just made watches to fill it.
But it created an interesting competitive space where it's like, I'm going to do better.
I'm going to be better than you even if I don't have to.
And then now everyone makes a field watch.
Yeah, when you approached me about this episode, I think you came at it with a bit of disgruntled
ness.
And I'm not sure what the genesis of that was and maybe you could talk about it.
But I'm telling me that all my watches look exactly the same and she's just fucking wrong.
Yeah.
Well, you know, and there's some perspective there too, I've talked about it on the show
before, but you know, my first watch purchasing journey was comparing the make-out to the
SKX and really having a hard time telling them apart at first.
These are the same.
What's different?
First now, I don't think they look at all alike, right?
And so there is some relative exposure that's going to change your perspective on that.
But I think your disgruntledness was maybe more focused than that.
You know, you had said something to me along the lines of if we're in a world where you
can just make a spec watch and start a watch brand, what's the point?
And although I think that that's an incredibly fair thing to say with regards to watches
in general, it's maybe not true about the A11, which I believe we discovered.
It's definitely not true about the A11.
That to say, and we talked about this a little bit, like what are you contributing?
What are you adding to the watch world?
And Nick Harris, I think I've talked about this on this show before, but Nick Harris
at one point said to me of Orion, when I had sent him a drawing of a watch for Foster,
and he said, what do you think of this?
And he had said to me, not rudely, but in a particularly Nick Harris way, you know,
I think he said the world doesn't need more watches ever.
The world needs more watch designers making interesting watches.
And it wasn't meant to be mean, it was more meant to make me think about what was happening.
Like what are we doing with this?
Yeah.
And I appreciated that.
I appreciated that advice, even if it's stung a little bit.
And I'm not one to say you shouldn't be making this watch to anybody, right?
Because we live in a capitalist society.
Make your nut.
Make your nut.
But aesthetically or perhaps horologically, I want more.
I want contributions.
That's right.
I want more.
I don't mean more in quantity.
I mean more in intriguing.
Yeah.
I want more.
I'm satisfied with the amount.
I want to be where the people are.
Yeah.
Walking around on what do you call them feet?
I am generally satisfied with the amount of 12, 24 hour track watches that exist in the
world.
There's maybe some cool things.
And with the Hamilton Cackey mechanical, do you actually need more watches than that?
I'm not sure you do.
I'm not sure you do either.
And I don't just mean field watches.
I mean watches.
It's the perfect watch.
I'm like pretty okay with it.
And I like more is more because I really do believe that more is more and more is more
better.
It's the monkeys on the typewriters, right?
Yeah.
I just I want to see and I think Nick nailed it.
Do we need more watches?
I think the answer is no.
It wasn't a question.
It was a statement.
The world does not need more watches.
Concur.
The world needs more interesting, thoughtfully designed shit.
I think GM Lang is a really good example.
Poor Garrett.
And right what you know, it's not it's nothing against him.
He saw a really awesome opportunity to make some money to do something cool and he really
aggressively attacked that.
And they did in fact do a cool thing because they were doing something that other people
were doing for way less money.
I mean GM Lang was the one of our episodes, the best bang for your buck watch that never
in never made it to market.
It's never made it to market and that's GM Lang trail secret never made it to market.
And that's why because they were doing something that people were already doing and they tried
to do it for less and realize that that's just not feasible.
Not a pull of our show.
The GM Lang watch the trail seeker was I believe if I'm remembering right, very close to a
dirty doesn't I?
But that's what I'm thinking about.
It's like what are you contributing?
Are you just trying to make some money or are you doing something cool?
You know, I think the worst defender of this.
So as I was going through that list, I'm going to read that list real again real quick.
It's again, this is not an exhaustive list.
But these are the ones I could find the bull of a hack the MK2 crucible or crucible the
Bertucci a 11 T the Precedus a 11 whether it's Tom Rice or the 44 MWC and Bolton.
You know, of these I find the bull of a hack to be the most offensive and it's not an offensive
watch. It is a lovely watch.
That's well priced.
It's been on many of our lists.
It's well sized.
But for a company like Bolova, which is bizarrely the only American company that exists in
anything even remotely similar to its American roots.
For a company like Bolova to have made this watch, which is cool, but not at all what
I want it to be.
It feels offensive to me.
And you could argue with me on that at all at many different angles that to say I love
what Precedus has done here, which is to really faithfully go into this with expectations
of making a watch that people are going to love.
And I do get the feeling that Precedus is thoughtful about making a watch that people
are going to be going to love.
But also making a watch that doesn't really exist.
You cannot buy a 32 millimeter A11 outside of Precedus.
Or vintage.
That's right.
Of course that's right.
They are making the only watch that's anything close to the original.
And maybe there's that tiny little market for a 32 millimeter field watch.
Probably almost non-existent.
Almost isn't justifiable for them to produce this watch.
With that said, they make it.
They do it anyway.
And I think it's rad.
And I think it's rad.
The rest of these are interesting.
And I think of these that the most expensive, the MK2 is probably the one I'd be most inclined
to own, not just because Bill Yow is a rad dude.
He's the coolest guy I've ever met.
But because it's a really beautiful, really well made watch, which is not to say the rest
of these aren't.
But there's none of the watches on this list that I'm like, got to have it.
I'd be more inclined to buy a Gigi or a Garrett Lang Trellseeker if it were available because
it's interesting.
Even if it was a copy of like three other watches.
Nine, maybe even.
You know, I want to buy and wear interesting watches.
And for me, I'm closer to like a VAR S3.
It's not exactly an A11, but it's really damn close.
It has that same kind of feel.
It's like an iterative play on the A11.
And it's interesting because they're because VAR is doing cool shit.
You know, this this might be I might be speaking too soon for you.
But I think this might be a good thought to leave the show on.
So famously Hamilton khaki mechanical is a very close iteration of a watch that Hamilton
has been making for now.
75 years going on 70 years.
That's right.
And they made they made watches for Vietnam soldiers.
They made civilian watches.
They continue to make that watch and basically have almost constantly the sizes of the different
the movements have been different.
The dials have been different, but it's been the same watch and you can today by famously
I think five years ago or maybe four years ago, Hamilton adjusted the dial on their Hamilton
khaki mechanical.
And it was instantly hit when I bought bought the Hamilton khaki mechanical watch that I
knew almost as soon as I started collecting watches I needed to have.
I bought two of them.
I bought the new one that is much closer to an OG GGW 113 dial and I bought the last version
of Hamilton's main line, which is not that dial.
It's a little bit different.
The markers are smaller.
The spacing is different.
But after getting the two, I made the decision to stick with the older one.
And I did that for a couple reasons.
One, it felt less generic.
Even though it was the older version and it wasn't the cool, the new kid.
It felt like, well, this is a this is a really like this is Hamilton's design.
It does all the exact same things.
But this is Hamilton's design.
This other one's not really Hamilton's design.
This is a spec design and and and furthermore, I just liked it better.
It was a more interesting watch to me for those reasons.
And so having both of them in my hands at the same time, do you double wrist them?
No, with but but with absolutely no reason to pick one over the other, no financial
impulse, no, there was no good reason to pick one.
I had them both.
I could just pick I went with the older one because it was more interesting.
And I think that's the point, right?
You can do this and you can still be interesting.
Yes, especially if you're not if you're making an A 11 and it's not 32 millimeters, make
it super fucking interesting, make it interesting, right?
Like if you're either trying to make it to the spec or not, and if you're not trying
to make it to the spec, make it cool.
Yeah.
Yeah, just make it cool.
Make cool watches.
Make cool watches.
Andrew, hmm, other things.
What do you got?
I have another thing.
So I watched an FX series several years ago called justified.
I've heard of this and it was Timothy, Ollie.
The Ollie font.
Holy font.
Ollie.
Elephant.
Elephant.
Who is a really great cowboy, the whole premise of the show and for those of you who somehow
are unfamiliar with FX shows is they are like second only to premium channels.
FX makes such good shows.
So the whole premise of the show is that Timothy Ollie font's character is a US marshal and
he gets reassigned back to kind of his general hometown.
And it's really interesting kind of like the wire meets John Wayne Westerns.
And it's great.
Super enjoyable show that character arcs are terrific.
It has probably my favorite of all time television character in the show because it's just this
beautiful story arc and it's a really complex character and they do a good job telling you
why the character is the way they are.
And also like showing this growth and progression throughout the show.
Anyway, it ended a couple of years ago, several years ago at this point, a couple, like about
a month ago I saw a trailer for a spin off mini series still starring our boy Tim.
Right.
Justified city primeval.
And it's the same character, but now he is like in this mini series kind of gets tied up
in something in Detroit and he's stuck there.
It is great.
They like they found a way to pick up the show exactly where you left off.
You don't notice care about or even think about the delta of I think eight years between
when the last season of the original justified ended and where we are now.
You can see character growth.
You can see like, oh, this guy is older.
He has changed.
He has grown, but it's still the dude, right?
And this show is great.
And it's a limited series, right?
It's a limited dish kind of open ended limited series from what I understand.
I still have I think two episodes to finish because I'm streaming it on Hulu.
So I think there's two episodes left in this season.
There's kind of a question mark as to whether or not they will do another season or maybe
another limited series, like a relocation kind of thing.
And I think they're kind of just playing it by ear on whether or not they're going
to renew it.
But it is cool.
I loved like I watched I caught caught up on prime evil.
I was like, I want to go back and watch the original one because the show was really good.
You know, interest interesting because I think probably your favorite two FX series, I did
not like I did not like justified.
I did not like sons of anarchy.
God, you're dumb.
With that said, I enjoyed sons of anarchy.
Sons of anarchy was really good until the last season.
But if you're anything like me and you're like, Andrew's crazy FX makes terrible series,
just listen to this.
It's got 90% on rotten justified the Americans Fargo.
Fuck yeah.
Sons of anarchy.
Legion.
The bear.
Mm hmm.
Atlanta.
Always sunny.
And is more.
I think you're right, Andrew.
I think oh, the league, which if you haven't watched the fucking league, go watch it.
Dave is FX.
Yeah.
FX is like second only to the premium channels.
What we do in the shadows.
Oh, really shit.
Was it American Horror Story FX?
I don't know.
I don't know.
I did not.
I don't actually think American Horror Story is a good series, but I'm having to move on
from there because I don't want to make anybody mad.
Yes, it was FX.
Yeah.
Very cool.
They just do really well produced, really well written, ever it's uncultured.
He doesn't care for character development.
He just wants to see the titties on Game of Thrones.
And that's what he wants.
And it's okay.
I don't blame you.
Yeah.
You just don't get that with FX because it's cable.
It's FX.
Yeah.
And not stars or skin MX.
Andrew, I got another thing.
Do me.
I've talked about pens, writing pens on this show before.
Apple pens.
The folks.
Did you know G2 makes a .38?
Oh, I did.
I did.
I used one today and I was like, well, fuck that.
I guess I'm now into the .38 zone.
Yeah.
Yeah.
G2.
G2 is like one of the icons.
I have used for the last several years a handful of pens.
I'm still a pilot high tech.
See guy.
I'm still a uniball guy.
Yeah, you are.
But I recently picked up a new set of pens.
I was getting low on my pens.
I use blue black ink.
I'm a big proponent of blue black ink, but I was looking for a new pen.
I wanted a new pen.
And in the Japanese do small gauge pens better than gel gel ink pens better than anybody
else in the world tracks.
Zebra, very, very famous company.
If you have you may have had like a zebra, the F I think their 305s or whatever, which
you can buy it off of steep or office max.
But zebras got a JDM line of gel ink pens called the Sarasa and the Sarasa clip, which
is a clicky, clippy pen that I've had in and of my collection.
They released an iteration of the zebra, Sarasa clip called the zebra, Sarasa are.
And I'd write about this thing and I thought, well, I'll try them out there.
Lock 75 of these, you can order them from jet pens and probably a few other places.
You may even be able to get these on Amazon stationary pallet, you know, from 99 cents
a piece in a point for blue, black zebra, Sarasa are, I ordered one of these and then
I went back in and I ordered 20 of them.
It is my new favorite gel ink pen.
If you like a pilot high tech C or the uni ball, I think zebra is making the best gel ink
pen between the clip is the and the bar is the clip metal.
It's my plastic.
It's plastic with the metal with metal springs and foundation.
No, no, no, so I put my, I clip my pens like a is it, is it plastic?
It's plastic, but it's a spring.
Oh, interesting.
It's a hinge with a spring.
So you can actually squeeze it to open it and it closes and I have, I don't believe I've
gone through probably 20 of these.
I don't think I've ever broken the clip on a zebra, Sarasa clip.
Do you clip your pen to think, the thing that I clip my pens to is thick.
Yeah, I mean, I put it in my pocket.
I put it in my bag.
It's just an incredibly well made pen.
All that to say, the R is different from the clip.
I think only in one meaningful way, which is that supposedly there's 25% more pigment
that's floated in the ink.
I don't notice a huge difference there, but if you've used a zebra, Sarasa clip in a
point for the R is a little bit smoother.
It's a little bit smoother to write with.
And it actually looks better too.
It's a white case instead of a clear case.
And I think it's just a terrific pen.
It is my new favorite pen, the zebra, Sarasa are point four in blue, black.
That's my other thing for the week.
Andrew, do you want to say anything about that?
I'm going to insist that you give me one.
I've got one.
I can give you one.
Okay.
It'll be linked.
They're terrific.
I'll give you one and you'll have to report back.
I will let you know.
It is a, okay.
So it's a clip.
It's a clip with a spring and it's a metal spring and it's not like a round spring.
It's a lever spring and I've never broken one.
And you can get refills for this if you really want, but I just use them and get a new one
when I'm done.
As pens are, they're durable.
I think it is my new, very favorite, durable gel ink pen.
It is worse than a pilot.
What's that?
Just blanking on it.
The G2.
The G2.
It's worse than a pilot G2 in the sense that you're going to have to order these.
And when you run out, you're going to have to order more.
You can't go to Home Depot and get these or Office Max or Target or Walmart everywhere
in the world carries a pilot G2.
So if you want a pilot G2, you just go to the closest place.
Everyone carries the point seven.
I prefer the point five.
I'm recently aware of the point three eight.
I prefer the point three eight to the point five.
But if you're someone that uses a pilot G2 and you're like, this is it, you have just,
you have just breached the surface of this world because there are about 50 pens that
you can buy on jet pens or somewhere else right now that will exceed a pilot G2 in almost
every sense possible.
And if you're not excited about pen improvements in your life, you're doing it wrong.
That's right.
This is a watch podcast.
Stop it.
Go get a better pen.
Yeah.
Andrew, anything else you want to add before we go today?
I'm all out of things, man.
Hey, you guys.
Thank you for joining us for this episode of 40 and 20, the watch, click or podcast.
We talk about watches and you can check us out on our website, watch clicker.com.
That's where we post every single episode of this podcast, as well as reviews and articles,
things like Henry Marginos article on the field watch, which will be linked in today's
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View Comments
One thing I don't recall if you mentioned would have been a cost spec on the A11 request to watch companies. That would have a limiting factor on innovation and features above and beyond the specs.